In the last couple of months, there was of lot of writing about Lisp, probably because dynamic languages are gaining popular for web 2.0 apps and also because of Ruby on Rails. Lisp is a real source of inspiration for most dynamic languages creators. But the recent Reddit scandal was like an earthquake for the Lisp community. Reddit, the popular tech news site, founded as a startup with the support of Paul Gram was rewritten from Lisp to Python. The news is sad but it actually raised the problems of the Lisp community.
I know Common Lisp very well, I’ve been educated with it and I know its vertu. But right now it suffers some incredibly small issues that the community refuses to address and that will led Common Lisp into an unoticed hole.
David Roberts and Robert Lally got the point right. This small community as smart it is suffers deeply from the fragmentation of the language implementation. Instead of gathering forces it disperse energies. That’s frustrating for the user not being able to find an implementation ready to work on all platforms. History in other communities showed that the implementation is the first point of rallying. Java got its adoption because of it, as so Python, Ruby and PHP.
The code base is also a problem. Unfortunately, most Common Lisp software is not a good example of good software engineering. Few people write good code. The community always praise for the beautiful and power aspect of the language but the packaging, documentation and interfaces (API) of software just look unprofessional. It’s a bad feeling of unfinished job.
The community generally don’t care about “weak” industrial standards like XML but it’s “our” reality. Accessing to standard document exchange, networking or threading in a portable and predictible way is now a basic requirement for programming enviroments. I don’t want to spend my time fixing my implementation problems or writting wrappers. I want to get into my own problem right away. Unfortunately, despite my time spent on Common Lisp I still don’t have this feeling, something is always missing and I have to do it myself. That’s not the way I’d like to communicate about Common Lisp. I found out that other languages are better in that regard.
I suppose most people in the community are tired about industry mistakes. I know that it took a lot of effort to produce the Common Lisp standard and that it didn’t take. But look, that’s the way the industry works and I think the acceptance of dynamic languages will accelerate in the future. Java make garbage collection a requirement and Python starts to make its path in the enterprise space — C and C++ is history.
That said, the Reddit failure was not the only one. Quite recently, a guy who wrote an industrial strength poker server in Common Lisp switched to Erlang because of the classic threading and networking issues. These events must be taken as profiler showing hotspots to fix in Common Lisp, not as a aggression on the community.
With all the buzz around dynamic languages, the failure of frameworks, the praise of Ruby on Rails and Web 2.0. I think it’s an ideal time for Common Lisp to show its full potential. Take the chance!
CTO at 



Comments
Why do you want another new stuffs. There is still plenty of unused languages in this world. Did you try Common Lisp? It’s a well-designed language and very complete. There is a lot of libraries to do all your day-to-day stuffs!
Concerning implementations, all commercials implementations are well supported and comes with a lot of recent features, like XML, RPC, graphics, GUI, etc…
Concerning the Common Lisp community, it’s really amazing to be able to talk with the masters just about anything about computing. This is an exceptional opportunity to have such experimeted people here! This is not the case with, say the Java community.
Concerning Free implementation, SBCL is a growing one. With a lot of refactoring and a lot of availables features. Working with a Debian system is a plus because every Common Lisp library is packaged within the system.
My suggestion. Start learning and using Common Lisp.
Frederic Brunel circa 200313 December 05 at 6:09 pm
Why do you want another new stuffs. There is still plenty of unused languages in this world. Did you try Common Lisp? It’s a well-designed language and very complete. There is a lot of libraries to do all your day-to-day stuffs!
Concerning implementations, all commercials implementations are well supported and comes with a lot of recent features, like XML, RPC, graphics, GUI, etc…
Concerning the Common Lisp community, it’s really amazing to be able to talk with the masters just about anything about computing. This is an exceptional opportunity to have such experimeted people here!
This is not the case with, say the Java community.
Concerning Free implementation, SBCL is a growing one. With a lot of refactoring and a lot of availables features. Working with a Debian system is a plus because every Common Lisp library is packaged within the system.
My suggestion. Start learning and using Common Lisp.
Frederic Brunel circa 200313 December 05 at 11:09 am
Thanks for your comment but I didn’t get your point. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a user Common Lisp and I’m also a member of a Lisp working group in Bordeaux, France so I know it very well.
I totally agree with you that there is a lot of valuable material in the community but I’m just saying that some recurrent problems keep plaguing the community and the credibility of Common Lisp.
The different implementations of the language is one of the issues. The lack of packaging and bad API design of some modules (i.e: ASDF) is another one. Some people like Edi Weitz are very sensitive to these “social” aspects of software and take care of users. As a result, its libraries have all been quickly adopted (i.e: CL-PPCRE) by the community. Other communities understood that for a long time.
I have big respect for guys behind SBCL and I really hope it will become the open source reference implementation of Common Lisp.
That said, I also came by another blog post that share my points “Why Lisp Still Hasn’t Won“. These comments should be taken as advices for improving Common Lisp.
Frederic Brunel14 December 05 at 2:41 pm
Thanks for your comment but I didn’t get your point. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a user Common Lisp and I’m also a member of a Lisp working group in Bordeaux, France so I know it very well.
I totally agree with you that there is a lot of valuable material in the community but I’m just saying that some recurrent problems keep plaguing the community and the credibility of Common Lisp.
The different implementations of the language is one of the issues. The lack of packaging and bad API design of some modules (i.e: ASDF) is another one. Some people like Edi Weitz are very sensitive to these “social” aspects of software and take care of users. As a result, its libraries have all been quickly adopted (i.e: CL-PPCRE) by the community. Other communities understood that for a long time.
I have big respect for guys behind SBCL and I really hope it will become the open source reference implementation of Common Lisp.
That said, I also came by another blog post that share my points “Why Lisp Still Hasn’t Won“. These comments should be taken as advices for improving Common Lisp.
Fred Brunel14 December 05 at 7:41 am
I posted it originally under the title “Frederic Brunel circa 2003″, and it was taken verbatim from a comp.lang.lisp post by a person named “Frederic Brunel”. It was intended to present a humorous contrast between your current skeptical, pessimistic, and critical attitude of 2005 and your happy, optimistic, and happy-go-lucky attitude of 2003. I’m afraid the subsequent edit makes that less clear.
Zach Beane16 December 05 at 12:29 am
I posted it originally under the title “Frederic Brunel circa 2003″, and it was taken verbatim from a comp.lang.lisp post by a person named “Frederic Brunel”. It was intended to present a humorous contrast between your current skeptical, pessimistic, and critical attitude of 2005 and your happy, optimistic, and happy-go-lucky attitude of 2003. I’m afraid the subsequent edit makes that less clear.
Zach Beane15 December 05 at 5:29 pm
Aah, now I understand why the post sounds familiar to me!
But you’re right, there is a clear constrast between my opinions.
In 2003, I though I would see big changes in 2005 and I’ve spent a lot of time to evangelise Common Lisp all around me. Actually I’m quite dissapointed to see where we stand today and what other communities manage to build in the same time.
Frederic Brunel16 December 05 at 12:03 pm
Aah, now I understand why the post sounds familiar to me!
But you’re right, there is a clear constrast between my opinions.
In 2003, I though I would see big changes in 2005 and I’ve spent a lot of time to evangelise Common Lisp all around me. Actually I’m quite dissapointed to see where we stand today and what other communities manage to build in the same time.
Fred Brunel16 December 05 at 5:03 am
Just a small correction Rob Lally … not Tally.
Yours,
Rob Lally
Rob Lally24 January 06 at 3:04 am
Just a small correction Rob Lally … not Tally.
Yours,
Rob Lally
Rob Lally23 January 06 at 8:04 pm
Sorry about that. I fixed it.
Thank you.
Frederic Brunel24 January 06 at 12:56 pm
Sorry about that. I fixed it.
Thank you.
Fred Brunel24 January 06 at 5:56 am
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